I Googled to learn more about what other people have thought about the Soto Zen Buddhism Facebook Group. I was a bit shocked by what I found.
It was by mere chance that I even found this post at tuttejiorg.wordpress.com. Whoever you are, wherever you may live, thank you!
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Warning: This is a long and heavy-handed post, and it’s not funny (or, if it is, it’s funny in the same way as a late Lenny Bruce routine). I will offer some recent examples of online interactions with x-buddhists, without analysis or more comments than necessary. Feel free to add your own.
I was recently kicked out from a Buddhist discussion board, this time a Soto Zen groupon Facebook. It’s a fairly large group, with close to 5000 members, monitored by sevenpolitical commissars admininstrators. Although the group itself is not affiliated with any particular Soto Zen cult sangha, one of these politruks, a self-described ”Zen chick and computer geek” is also a ”nun” in the infamous AZI organization, and another one is some kind of middle manager in the lineage of our favorite Zen huckster, Genpo Merzel ”Roshi”.
(There are a couple of reasons why I offer this information. First, I suspect quite a few people would imagine that folks wasting their time on Facebook can’t be representative of x-buddhism as a whole, and this is a good example of how the opposite is true: x-buddhism thrives in environments like this.I also know that many people are under the mistaken impression that x-buddhism is significantly different than other cults, and that the numerous scandals involving Buddhist teachers are nothing but tragic exceptions, concerning disturbed individuals who just happen to be Zen Masters. If, on the other hand, these problems really are systemic, the words and deeds of the middle-men should be of considerable interest if we want to understand the strange world of x-buddhism.)
This wasn’t the first time I was banned from a Buddhist online forum. (I don’t know who holds the record here, Tom Pepper, Glenn Wallis, or me, but never mind.) Still, I have to admit that I was a little surprised as I hadn’t done anything more offensive than posting a few images, like the one below, with links to this webpage. In fact, several of the politruksadministrators sent me private messages, assuring me that they thought this kind of satire was both pertinent and to-the-point. At the same time, they were concerned by the hysterical responses these posts seemed to provoke.
Herbie Trashman Roshi. Click to read an article too offensive for Soto Zen sensibilities.
I was a little taken aback myself, both by the stupidity and the vitriol in these responses. A small sample should be enough to give you an idea:
x-buddhist 1Tutte, You’ve been sussed! Now fuck off and take your pathetic attempts at trolling someplace else! Ya … twat, ye!
x-buddhist 2Tutte, lying is actually against the Precepts in Buddhism. Even if you are doing it for satire, or humor, it’s still breaking the Precepts and is inappropriate in a Soto Zen Board, where the purpose of our practice is Preceptual behavior. Specifically, when you say something like ”Herbie Trashman Roshi, a fully transmitted Soto Zen teacher”, and no such person actually exists, or is Dharma Transmitted, that’s actually lying … Even if it’s done for humorous purposes, it’s still breaking the Precepts. Right speech is also part of the Noble Eightfold Path, and it includes things like sarcasm … We’re trying to learn to become gentler in our speech, not harsher …
A Voice of Sanity
If you think that humor is unbuddhist, well then that explains a whole lot of things …
A Voice of Sanity
If you think that humor is unbuddhist, well then that explains a whole lot of things …
x-buddhist 2
Humor is not un Buddhist. Lying is. Are you saying that to have a sense of humor requires one to be lying?
Humor is not un Buddhist. Lying is. Are you saying that to have a sense of humor requires one to be lying?
x-buddhist 3
Admins have the final word. He is a threat to this page and much of it is not appropriate humor or satire … Stating death camp practice is not funny. It is sick and offensive.
Admins have the final word. He is a threat to this page and much of it is not appropriate humor or satire … Stating death camp practice is not funny. It is sick and offensive.
A Voice of Sanity
Death camp practice is actually done by a Soto teacher. That part is not fiction.
Death camp practice is actually done by a Soto teacher. That part is not fiction.
x-buddhist 2
But the didn’t refer to a specific Soto Teacher. He invented one up. That’s very different. It’s perfectly valid to talk about critique and problems of an actual situation. But simply adding harsh speech on top of it is not Right Speech.
But the didn’t refer to a specific Soto Teacher. He invented one up. That’s very different. It’s perfectly valid to talk about critique and problems of an actual situation. But simply adding harsh speech on top of it is not Right Speech.
x-buddhist 1
My ’associates’ are currently tracking down the ID and physical location of ”Tutte” and his supporters.
My ’associates’ are currently tracking down the ID and physical location of ”Tutte” and his supporters.
x-buddhist 2
I just spent the last few minutes scrolling through the blog. There is a mix of what is both valid criticisms in there, (for instance, criticizing the monetization of the Dharma, teacher abuses, etc), along with a very real undertone of grief and anger. There is a considerable number of posts there. This isn’t simply someone’s funny comment, someone has put considerable time and effort into this project. They have been at it for some time, and given the amount of inside references of knowledge of Zen and Buddhism that are sprinkled throughout the blog, it tells me that this person is either a current or former Zen teacher themselves, or someone who is or was formerly a student of a Zen teacher.
I just spent the last few minutes scrolling through the blog. There is a mix of what is both valid criticisms in there, (for instance, criticizing the monetization of the Dharma, teacher abuses, etc), along with a very real undertone of grief and anger. There is a considerable number of posts there. This isn’t simply someone’s funny comment, someone has put considerable time and effort into this project. They have been at it for some time, and given the amount of inside references of knowledge of Zen and Buddhism that are sprinkled throughout the blog, it tells me that this person is either a current or former Zen teacher themselves, or someone who is or was formerly a student of a Zen teacher.
After a couple of hundred comments like the ones above, I posted a quote from German philosopher Peter Sloterdijk that I’ve used as an image header on this blog from time to time:
How much truth is contained in something can be best determined by making it thoroughly laughable and then watching to see how much joking around it can take. For truth is a matter that can withstand mockery, that is freshened by any ironic gesture directed at it. Whatever cannot withstand satire is false.
Within a few minutes, this comment was deleted by the commissars. Thinking that the words of a contemporary, western thinker might be too hard to digest for an audience used to a diet of fortune cookie platitudes, self-help books, and fragments from theShobogenzo I posted the following image:
That, apparently, was the final straw. When I logged on again, I had been banned from the forum. In good Stalinist fashion, all my previous posts had also been deleted.
* * *
A few hours later, Bjarne Rydhielm (a good friend and a skilled transntegral coach) joined the Soto Zen group and posted a few questions. Read on, and see what happened:
Bjarne Rydhielm
It seems as if the ”idiot poster” Tutte Wachtmeister Dai Osho has been
banned. As I found his comments more enlightening than the fortune cookie
plattitudes and passive-aggressive rants normally found on Buddhist boards, I’d
like to know why. Perhaps I have misunderstood the purpose of this group, and
it is really a hangout for fundamentalists and consumers of Buddhist kitsch. In
any case, a clarification from the moderators would be appreciated.
It seems as if the ”idiot poster” Tutte Wachtmeister Dai Osho has been
banned. As I found his comments more enlightening than the fortune cookie
plattitudes and passive-aggressive rants normally found on Buddhist boards, I’d
like to know why. Perhaps I have misunderstood the purpose of this group, and
it is really a hangout for fundamentalists and consumers of Buddhist kitsch. In
any case, a clarification from the moderators would be appreciated.
I wonder,for example, if there is a taboo against satirizing North American Soto luminarities, like here:
http://tuttejiorg.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/herbie-trashman-roshi/ …
http://tuttejiorg.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/herbie-trashman-roshi/ …
Lana Berrington (admin)
If you have a question, you are welcome to message the administrators privately.
If you have a question, you are welcome to message the administrators privately.
Bjarne Rydhielm
No, I think you’ve made it perfectly clear what kind of group this is.
The fear of responding to questions and critique in public, the practice of
deleting comments and entire threads, and the banning of members without
previous warnings are very revealing.
No, I think you’ve made it perfectly clear what kind of group this is.
The fear of responding to questions and critique in public, the practice of
deleting comments and entire threads, and the banning of members without
previous warnings are very revealing.
Matthias Eng
What a stalinist zen group.
What a stalinist zen group.
Heather Hutchinson
Come on, you guys. It’s more important that we see posts of the
“Make me one with everything” cartoon we’ve seen a dozen times
already. Much more useful.
Come on, you guys. It’s more important that we see posts of the
“Make me one with everything” cartoon we’ve seen a dozen times
already. Much more useful.
Bjarne RydhielmLet’s see how long it takes before this thread is deleted.
Alasdair Gordon-Finlayson (admin)
Bjarne, you’ve been invited to ask this privately. Please don’t insist on a public blame game – can we get back to being a Soto Zen group now?
Bjarne RydhielmActually, Lana Berrington,why don’t you tell us why Tutte’s posts were deleted and – especially – why he was banned from this group. If you don’t want to discuss this in public, please explain why.
Heather HutchinsonWhy not publicly discuss this issue? Seems it could be a good discussion.
Alasdair Gordon-FinlaysonI get that you want to discuss it – and in principle I’m all for allowing discussion – but right now it’ll just pour petrol on the embers. Can I suggest we allow the dust to settle and moods to settle and come back to it in about a week or so?
Heather HutchinsonThe only thing is, I don’t see a different attitude being present in a week or two.
Jaime McLeod (admin)lol
Alasdair Gordon-FinlaysonPerhaps, perhaps not,Heather. Can’t hurt to try.
Heather HutchinsonActually, it’s just dismissing those of us with questions.
Bjarne RydhielmOK – Another question for the ventriloquist and the dummy: What are you so afraid of? More people leaving this group in disgust? Having Soto celebritites exposed? Anything else?
Alasdair Gordon-Finlayson
I’m genuinely not dismissing you, Heather. Actually, I agree it’s right to talk about these issues – not to do so would be to buy into the same sort of authoritarian nonsense that Tutte was satirising in the first place. But please – can we first allow a short time to pass while people get a chance to re-centre themselves on this, and reflect on their own actions as well as what’s passed here. And I include myself in this too – we are none of us blameless. Even those who watched and chose not to post on either side were making a decision.
I’m genuinely not dismissing you, Heather. Actually, I agree it’s right to talk about these issues – not to do so would be to buy into the same sort of authoritarian nonsense that Tutte was satirising in the first place. But please – can we first allow a short time to pass while people get a chance to re-centre themselves on this, and reflect on their own actions as well as what’s passed here. And I include myself in this too – we are none of us blameless. Even those who watched and chose not to post on either side were making a decision.
Bjarne Rydhielm
And why do you presume I’d be interested in a “blame game”?
And why do you presume I’d be interested in a “blame game”?
Heather Hutchinson
The fact anyone would need a week to calm down over all of this is kind of the problem, no? Someone posted some satire. People are that upset that need a week to settle? I just…I don’t get it.
The fact anyone would need a week to calm down over all of this is kind of the problem, no? Someone posted some satire. People are that upset that need a week to settle? I just…I don’t get it.
Jaime McLeod
Look, none of the admins have any problem with satire, but we all agreed that Tutte crossed the line into trolling one too many times. We held back on this for a long time, respecting his obvious intention to hold up a mirror to some of the uglier parts of Zen culture, but the aggressiveness just got to be too damaging. Our guidelines clearly state: This is not a group for discussions about ‘general spirituality’, nor is flaming, trolling, flooding, spamming, or any other anti-social web behaviour tolerated. Speaking of which, Bjarne’s name-calling, above, crosses that line. Consider this a warning.
Look, none of the admins have any problem with satire, but we all agreed that Tutte crossed the line into trolling one too many times. We held back on this for a long time, respecting his obvious intention to hold up a mirror to some of the uglier parts of Zen culture, but the aggressiveness just got to be too damaging. Our guidelines clearly state: This is not a group for discussions about ‘general spirituality’, nor is flaming, trolling, flooding, spamming, or any other anti-social web behaviour tolerated. Speaking of which, Bjarne’s name-calling, above, crosses that line. Consider this a warning.
Alasdair Gordon-Finlayson
Look I pulled “a week” out of thin air. But some time is obviously needed… or this thread wouldn’t exixst.
Look I pulled “a week” out of thin air. But some time is obviously needed… or this thread wouldn’t exixst.
Heather Hutchinson
I don’t think it is. I think time will pass, someone will ask this again, and some will freak out again and demand the asker be banned.
I don’t think it is. I think time will pass, someone will ask this again, and some will freak out again and demand the asker be banned.
Bjarne Rydhielm
How do you define “trolling”, and where, *exactly* did Tutteji Dai Osho cross the line?
How do you define “trolling”, and where, *exactly* did Tutteji Dai Osho cross the line?
Jaime McLeod
Bjarne, most of those posts were deleted.
Bjarne, most of those posts were deleted.
Heather Hutchinson
Which is a shame.
Which is a shame.
Bjarne Rydhielm
That was not what I asked.
That was not what I asked.
Alasdair Gordon-Finlayson
I see anger rising in me, so I’m going to take break.
I see anger rising in me, so I’m going to take break.
Bjarne Rydhielm
I’m perfectly calm, and waiting for a response from Lana Berrington.
I’m perfectly calm, and waiting for a response from Lana Berrington.
Jaime McLeod
I am not interested in in combing through the entrails. You asked for an explanation. I gave one. No one is saying Tutte’s social commentary is not valid, but his persona was causing too many problems here. If you enjoy it, you can still go enjoy it on his site. That’s the beauty of the Internet. And, I’m with you on the fortune cookie posts and the cartoon. We’re working on that.
I am not interested in in combing through the entrails. You asked for an explanation. I gave one. No one is saying Tutte’s social commentary is not valid, but his persona was causing too many problems here. If you enjoy it, you can still go enjoy it on his site. That’s the beauty of the Internet. And, I’m with you on the fortune cookie posts and the cartoon. We’re working on that.
Bjarne Rydhielm
Do practitioners of shikantaza normally need two weeks to “re-centre” themselves before posting a comment on Facebook?
Do practitioners of shikantaza normally need two weeks to “re-centre” themselves before posting a comment on Facebook?
Alasdair Gordon-Finlayson
Yes, Bjarne, practitioners of shikantaza are just like other humans, and sometimes moreso.
Yes, Bjarne, practitioners of shikantaza are just like other humans, and sometimes moreso.
Matthias Eng
Did you ban these people?
Did you ban these people?
Jaime Mc Leod
Many of them banned themselves
Many of them banned themselves
Matthias Eng
Jaime, the flaming was all done by members of this board opposing Tutte.
Jaime, the flaming was all done by members of this board opposing Tutte.
Matthias Eng
I have one basic question now: What is it you are trying to achieve with this board? Posting of ancient quotes and flowery pictures is fine, but actual discussion of actually existing Soto Zen teachers and practitioners is not? What is the benefit of this?
I have one basic question now: What is it you are trying to achieve with this board? Posting of ancient quotes and flowery pictures is fine, but actual discussion of actually existing Soto Zen teachers and practitioners is not? What is the benefit of this?
Bjarne Rydhielm
Matthias Eng: You forgot to mention the cartoons.
Matthias Eng: You forgot to mention the cartoons.
Matthias Eng
The troll members of your board were causing problems.
The troll members of your board were causing problems.
Heather Hutchinson
That’s your prerogative. But, I posted a question here yesterday and was “told on” for my trouble. I haven’t posted satire (which is obviously too harsh for some here), and yet was treated as a troll, which I don’t think I am. It seems this group has some members that are very touchy and will seek to ban those they disagree with. That doesn’t seem very “zen” to me.
That’s your prerogative. But, I posted a question here yesterday and was “told on” for my trouble. I haven’t posted satire (which is obviously too harsh for some here), and yet was treated as a troll, which I don’t think I am. It seems this group has some members that are very touchy and will seek to ban those they disagree with. That doesn’t seem very “zen” to me.
Matthias Eng
You did not answer my question: What is the purpose of this board? I am honestly interested.
You did not answer my question: What is the purpose of this board? I am honestly interested.
Bjarne Rydhielm
Well, I asked you two questions, neither of which you’ve responded to:
1) How do you define “trolling” (of which TW was accused)?
2) Exactly when did TW cross the line into this forbidden territory?
If a handful (out of 5000) members were annoyed by a satire which you and other administrators of this group admitted was “to the point” and relevant, do you think it’s reasonable to ban the person posting it? (ie shooting the messenger)
Well, I asked you two questions, neither of which you’ve responded to:
1) How do you define “trolling” (of which TW was accused)?
2) Exactly when did TW cross the line into this forbidden territory?
If a handful (out of 5000) members were annoyed by a satire which you and other administrators of this group admitted was “to the point” and relevant, do you think it’s reasonable to ban the person posting it? (ie shooting the messenger)
Lana Berrington
yup, me too. for those of you still mourning the removal of Tutte’s posts and of the persona behind them, please, I encourage you to go to his website. Bjarne – I don’t feel the need to respond to demands at this point. As Jaime said above, none of us had a problem with the satire in and of itself. Though several of us had a problem with the underlying vitriol and bitterness inside of it. This is a group with clearly posted guidelines. Also, Bjarne, perhaps it’s not the middle of a work day where you are, but it it is in my time zone, so forgive me for not responding quickly.
yup, me too. for those of you still mourning the removal of Tutte’s posts and of the persona behind them, please, I encourage you to go to his website. Bjarne – I don’t feel the need to respond to demands at this point. As Jaime said above, none of us had a problem with the satire in and of itself. Though several of us had a problem with the underlying vitriol and bitterness inside of it. This is a group with clearly posted guidelines. Also, Bjarne, perhaps it’s not the middle of a work day where you are, but it it is in my time zone, so forgive me for not responding quickly.
Bjarne Rydhielm
Well, I noticed you found the time to “like” Alasdair’s comments rather than responding yourself, hence the “ventriloquist” comment.
Well, I noticed you found the time to “like” Alasdair’s comments rather than responding yourself, hence the “ventriloquist” comment.
Lana Berrington
turns out it’s easier to hit like and agree, than to type a long paragraph…
turns out it’s easier to hit like and agree, than to type a long paragraph…
Bjarne Rydhielm
Indeed. But you have no problems reading others’ minds, detecting “vitriol and bitterness”. And this is not about “blame games” or “mourning the removal of Tutte’s posts” or whatever you mind-reading wizzards imagine. All the questions raised in this thread have to do with how this group is managed. Questions which the administrators continue to evade in their need to retreat for a couple of weeks to re-center themselves.
Indeed. But you have no problems reading others’ minds, detecting “vitriol and bitterness”. And this is not about “blame games” or “mourning the removal of Tutte’s posts” or whatever you mind-reading wizzards imagine. All the questions raised in this thread have to do with how this group is managed. Questions which the administrators continue to evade in their need to retreat for a couple of weeks to re-center themselves.
Lana Berrington
Bjarne, I grow weary of this. I’m sorry you’re terribly upset about the decision to remove these posts and the poster. But frankly, we’re all just volunteers here, and your accusative tone is not appreciated. Next time I’m in Stockholm I’d be happy to sit down and have a coffee with you and discuss this. But right now , I have work to finish. Enjoy your day.
Bjarne, I grow weary of this. I’m sorry you’re terribly upset about the decision to remove these posts and the poster. But frankly, we’re all just volunteers here, and your accusative tone is not appreciated. Next time I’m in Stockholm I’d be happy to sit down and have a coffee with you and discuss this. But right now , I have work to finish. Enjoy your day.
Bjarne Rydhielm
I am not at all upset, but your habit of ascribing moods and motivations to others is a bit annoying. And why would I be interested in having a cup of coffee with you? All I am doing is asking questions about this group.
I am not at all upset, but your habit of ascribing moods and motivations to others is a bit annoying. And why would I be interested in having a cup of coffee with you? All I am doing is asking questions about this group.
Jaime McLeod
The dictionary definition of trolling is to “submit a deliberately provocative posting to an online message board with the aim of inciting an angry response.” Tutte’s initial posts did not seem to have that intent, in most cases, – as an aside, I enjoy some of his satire very much – but many of his comments after the fact (ones that were deleted by other admins, so I cannot quote them just now) did cross that line in the collective opinion of the admins. As Lana stated, we are all volunteers. If you dislike this group, you are welcome to start one that would better suit your tastes.
The dictionary definition of trolling is to “submit a deliberately provocative posting to an online message board with the aim of inciting an angry response.” Tutte’s initial posts did not seem to have that intent, in most cases, – as an aside, I enjoy some of his satire very much – but many of his comments after the fact (ones that were deleted by other admins, so I cannot quote them just now) did cross that line in the collective opinion of the admins. As Lana stated, we are all volunteers. If you dislike this group, you are welcome to start one that would better suit your tastes.
Bjarne Rydhielm
What does your volonteer status have to do with anything? And, again, I’m not suggesting you should change anything – only that you make your policies transparent. And, judging from PMs I’ve received, there isn’t much of a “collective opinion” among the admins.
What does your volonteer status have to do with anything? And, again, I’m not suggesting you should change anything – only that you make your policies transparent. And, judging from PMs I’ve received, there isn’t much of a “collective opinion” among the admins.
Jaime McLeod
*crickets*
*crickets*
Bjarne Rydhielm
I’d like to suggest a couple of things:
1) That you stop guessing the intentions and mindstates of people you interact with here.
2) That you focus, instead, on the effects of their contributions.
3) That you at least consider the possibility that anger and confusion are not necessarily bad things, and that having a few flower-image posters and fundamentalists leaving the group in disgust is not a disaster.
I’d like to suggest a couple of things:
1) That you stop guessing the intentions and mindstates of people you interact with here.
2) That you focus, instead, on the effects of their contributions.
3) That you at least consider the possibility that anger and confusion are not necessarily bad things, and that having a few flower-image posters and fundamentalists leaving the group in disgust is not a disaster.
Jaime McLeod
Suggestion noted.
Suggestion noted.
(Editors note: At this point the conversation was interrupted by a fundamentalist troll.)
Matthias Eng
Fine example of who is really trolling here.
Fine example of who is really trolling here.
Bjarne Rydhielm
Now, Jaime McLeod, here is a prime example of trolling. Will you please remove NN from this thread?
Now, Jaime McLeod, here is a prime example of trolling. Will you please remove NN from this thread?
Bjarne Rydhielm
Of course she won’t do that. In about 45 seconds, I will probably be issued a warning and/or be banned from this group, and this thread will be deleted.
Of course she won’t do that. In about 45 seconds, I will probably be issued a warning and/or be banned from this group, and this thread will be deleted.
Jamie McLeod
Now who is “guessing the intentions and mindstates of people you interact with here.”
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